Sara Smith 00:00
People don't really talk about the emotional side, what it does to your psyche enough. I think anytime you look up anything, it's just about how to get through the skills, how to get your kid to take the SATs, or whatever that kind of stuff is who to help your kid learn XY and Z or how to help you. How can you manage this whatever you want. It's very academic for arrest. I don't think anyone talks about the mental side of it enough. And I've actually looked for that.
Jennie Sjursen 00:32
I'm Jenny Sjursen ex special educator turned dyslexia interventionist. It wasn't so long ago, that I too, was overwhelmed by balanced literacy versus structured literacy, education speak, and everything in between. Fast forward after many, many hours of self driven education. And you'll see I've built a thriving dyslexia practice helping students from age six to 18. My specialties, working with a quote unquote difficult almost always to the student, and breaking down the complexities of dyslexic to everyday language strategies and action steps.
Jennie Sjursen 01:11
Many of you know that dyslexia and ADHD run in my family. Dyslexia has been part of my family for as long as I can remember. I can't even remember a world without dyslexia being a part of it. But I also don't directly experience it. My experiences have always been secondhand, which is why one of my earlier Episodes Episode Five, and my first guest on the show was my dad, I wanted his voice to be heard. His is the voice of a man who didn't know he had dyslexia until one of his children was diagnosed with it. And even though he had struggles he was and is a successful adult. Ever since we recorded that podcast, I wanted my sister's voice to be heard too.
Jennie Sjursen 01:56
She's in the unique position of not only being a dyslexic, but also a daughter and a mother to other dyslexics. I don't tell her enough, but I think she is amazing. And I know you will do. Without further ado, it is my pleasure to welcome my sister Sarah. One of the reasons I wanted to interview her was because of her unique perspective on all of this, every time I think about it, I think about the song stuck in the middle with you. Because she is in the middle. She's a mom, and she's a daughter, and she's also a dyslexic. So she has a really rounded, unique point of view of what dyslexia is, do you want to just introduce yourself really quick.
Sara Smith 02:37
So in this regard, I am 46. I have dyslexia, they figured that out when I was second grade, I believe, and my son, one of my sons has dyslexia, as does our father.
Jennie Sjursen 02:54
So what is dyslexia mean to you? Because you and I've talked about this dyslexia is different for everybody, how it takes place in their brain and how the symptoms and everything happened. What does it mean for you?
Sara Smith 03:06
I guess it depends on what lens I'm looking at. If I'm looking at it from my son, then it's how are we supporting him and getting his needs met, and helping him to thrive? I guess I'm looking at it for myself. It's just a challenge.
Jennie Sjursen 03:24
And what ways I'm less
Sara Smith 03:26
aware of the ways that it's a challenge now, because I've been using coping skills for so long, sometimes, academically, or learning new skills feels like time pushing a rock up a mountain takes me longer to get to the same place as everybody else. But I'm so used to it now, that just is what
Jennie Sjursen 03:48
it is. Does it make you hesitate sometimes for you to try something new, ah,
Sara Smith 03:53
not so much into try the new things, but in how I need to approach it, or how much grace I need to give myself in not hitting the marks everyone else is hitting or in the same timeframe? Okay, so
Jennie Sjursen 04:07
you just kind of have to, in a sense, kind of gain yourself or get yourself yeah,
Sara Smith 04:11
I do think there were periods where I was like, like, that's not something I could do or pursue, but that's less now and it's more like I could do that. I just have to think of what skills I have. That could work around my the problems.
Jennie Sjursen 04:26
So I have two questions for that. What do you perceive your problems? Is it decoding? Is it writing? Is it actually saying
Sara Smith 04:33
I'm a good writer? I do too. So no, I can't write freehand I have to read the computer so but physical hand physical handwriting stinkle And then computers fine because I have I can read do it a million times and I have my spellcheck. That would be the Yeah, so handwriting. Physical handwriting would be a challenge. I don't read fast. Nonfiction takes me a while to get through fiction I'm fine with but nonfiction I really have to slow down. I do better listening to nonfiction than reading because
Jennie Sjursen 05:07
you love all the audiobooks and all those things. Yeah,
Sara Smith 05:10
once I discovered audiobooks and podcasts, it was like, I couldn't believe I could, in my passive time meaning walking the dog cleaning, I could learn all these new things that normally would, I would have to struggle to learn these new things. So that was just like, mind blown experience once I figured that out.
Jennie Sjursen 05:25
Very cool. How has having a parent who also has dyslexia and found out the same time as you write in for you? Like, is it was it a support? Was
Sara Smith 05:36
it helpful, was it? Well, it was good. And so far as like, you can see that you can grow up and be normal functioning adult. So that wasn't a surprise, I suppose. So that was good. And he was also supportive of the mindfuck that it gives you. So not feeling like you can do everything like everybody else, or being capable. He was great support system for that, too.
Jennie Sjursen 06:01
I think he's still is I think you guys still have a connection in a way that he doesn't have with with Katie mine. Because of this.
Sara Smith 06:09
He was just telling me this morning about Cooper, my one that has dyslexia and how he's listening to and talk and he's relating to what could be saying,
Jennie Sjursen 06:18
bingo last night, they were both struggling with bingo. And they were saying it's the same thing. They were trying to approach it the same way and having the same issue. And they're funny with that. So what's it been like parenting another dyslexic?
Sara Smith 06:33
I guess I have been very, like, no bullshit. Like, nobody can tell me what he does or doesn't need. I mean, obviously, I've gone to the experts. And I've gotten the their opinions and taking that into consideration. But I won't listen to anybody who tells me it's mild or it's not mild, or it's this, it's that I just have to listen to him look at him and what he's kind of work he's producing and where he's struggling. And then it's just, I don't care what's in my way, what he needs is what's happening. And I will scale a wall to make that happen.
Jennie Sjursen 07:06
So an each of your children approached reading differently.
Sara Smith 07:10
Yeah, so I have three kids. And number one, and number three, for lack of a better term are somewhat gifted in learning and reading and writing and all that, especially my youngest, who wanted to catch up, I guess with her brothers, she was adamant that he was gonna read still as a ferocious reader. So with coop, I actually asked every single year, do you think he's dyslexic? Because I knew it's highly hereditary.
Sara Smith 07:35
Do you think he's in every year? They said, No, no, no, no, no, at one point we did on our own, we didn't get a diagnosis we just did reading somebody to help him, I guess, a tutor. And that worked. And that was great. And then he was reading, I was naive enough to think that as long as he was reading, we didn't need to get the full diagnosis. And it was fine. But that caught up with us in the middle school, in which case we needed to get combinations. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the school kind of telling was more of a speech issue like that or two.
Sara Smith 08:04
He was saddled with everything that the ADHD that dyslexia and instead are but yes, they recognise the stutter, but they did not recognise the dyslexia. And they were kind of hesitant ADHD to because he's not typical boy, he he's an attentive, attentive. Yep.
Jennie Sjursen 08:20
So I think your experience with him is a kind of a good example of where they focus on the speech and not realising it, how it affects all the reading and the writing all the way through. Because what's beyond could be his handwriting like you. Terrible. Yeah. So I think they got stuck on that speech aspect with the stutter and didn't. And they're like, oh, no, they were focusing on that.
Sara Smith 08:44
Well, he meant all that he kept. Every year, he hit the standardised testing requirements. So he was never behind. The last year eighth grade is actually his math teacher that said, something's a little off. That was when we went forward with the testing. And obviously, nobody paid for that. So we had to figure out how to do all that. Because the school we would just went to public school and so it wasn't extremely
Jennie Sjursen 09:08
accommodating. No, and they offered you a 504 instead of an IEP Correct. Ah, well, I
Sara Smith 09:14
had to go and balls balls out. Five before but yes.
Jennie Sjursen 09:19
Yeah, remember you had to fight for the fibre for yourself. Honestly,
Sara Smith 09:22
he would not have liked an IP because he would not have wanted to been pulled for extra instructions. So the fibre floor was fine. And we got our own dyslexia tutor who also did ADHD. Executive functioning.
Jennie Sjursen 09:35
You had to do a lot outside of school. And so did mom and dad if I remember correctly for me, you Yeah,
Sara Smith 09:40
I had resource room. And I also had the Susan Santoro.
Jennie Sjursen 09:47
Dad talked about her frequently. Yes. What do you think from your perspective, because you've seen it at all the different Angel you see how dad thinks about it, you see how he thinks about it, and you What do you think people how they perceive dyslexia? Or what do they get wrong? About what when they think about it? Well, I
Sara Smith 10:07
think for most people, it's a joke. I don't mean a joke. Like, it's more like, Oh, I'm having a dyslexic day.
Jennie Sjursen 10:13
You know, we had a cousin used to say that my dyslexia is acting out. Yeah. Okay.
Sara Smith 10:17
So that is mostly how I have heard it referred to in regular everyday life. Reading as a kid, I wasn't really reading until fifth grade. I mean, they did intervention, but I couldn't like sit down and like read a book, age appropriate ish, until fifth grade. And even then the colours were Susu, like masks of kids didn't know where you are. But every kid knew what level you were. And I couldn't get out of the beginning colour.
Sara Smith 10:46
And I remember being well read or something, whatever. Just not feeling great about your friends in school now. Oh, yeah. Hi, everybody knew. I had one friend who didn't like that. It got me more attention, and then tried to say for a while that she had it too. And I remember Mrs. Stone was don't nip that in the bud. Real fast. But yeah, everybody.
Jennie Sjursen 11:12
What about your friends? Now? Do you share it as often? Or is it just kind of comes up?
Sara Smith 11:17
Just as it comes up? I mean, my close friends will know, because we went through other stuff coop, and then I don't actually hide it. I don't have any shame about it. I don't care. I mean, internally, I have a lot of mixed feelings about it.
Jennie Sjursen 11:30
But publicly, but I don't think it's something that comes up in conversation in his life, either. Unless he's actually talking about the work that I'm doing, or he's talking about you or Kootenay. Again, I don't think he's ashamed of it or anything. It's just, I think, as you get older, you have more skills.
Sara Smith 11:49
Yeah, it doesn't come up as much. Like I just took this the proofreading thing. Course thing. And there was two big tests, you have to pass both I had to do twice, pass. But I know there's a lot I know somebody who took it seven times doesn't seem to have any kind of learning disability. So I have moments of like, Can I do this, but also, based on this? How much challenging is for other people to I feel like, well,
Jennie Sjursen 12:14
would it be fair to say it was a bigger deal in school than it is now as an adult? And what I mean by your peers? Yes.
Sara Smith 12:23
I don't think anyone cares.
Jennie Sjursen 12:24
I think again, it's it's some of the perception of things. And there's still that competition in school and thing, anything
Sara Smith 12:30
now it's just, it's just leftover stuff from childhood in my head.
Jennie Sjursen 12:34
I can see that. I think I think I see a difference too. In Cooper in that. I know, you can tell me I'm wrong. But it's more widely accepted across the board.
Sara Smith 12:46
Yeah, well, more people have heard of it. Yeah, for sure. And now, when I was a kid, like, I probably have that part, or just kind of the math part. Yeah, the dyscalculia. Yeah, but they didn't test me for that. Or they didn't know about that. That was like a thing. They just said, like, when I was bad at math. They were just gonna like, this is part of it. But but now I feel like there's more subcategories. And I want one. Yeah.
Jennie Sjursen 13:09
So they have the dysgraphia, which is the handwriting which you and Qubee. Have, and they have the dyscalculia. They're still not as well known, or as a supportive, but people are more aware of it. Yeah. And they were. So
Sara Smith 13:21
I feel like dyslexia in general, either. You think it's just a thing that people say like a jokey thing, like, Oh, I'm not, oh, I missed that word. I must have dyslexia today. Or you actually know what it is. But it's not. I don't see much of a stigma against
Jennie Sjursen 13:37
it. No, I think it was a harder thing when we were kids. And when the dad was a kid, I do think there's more acceptance of it.
Sara Smith 13:43
I guess it was a little bit like, Oh, does that mean you're dumb? Yes. Because dad had that. Yeah. And I had that. I don't think he has that. He's dumb. Now, though. I, you know, I don't think he thinks he's dumb in terms of like, can he understand concepts and things like that?
Sara Smith 13:59
But I do think he probably has something about I don't shouldn't speak for him. But I do think feel like he has something about, which probably goes every dyslexic like, how long will it take me to get this? Or how much longer will this that kind of stuff? Yeah, obvious something about that? Yeah.
Jennie Sjursen 14:14
Maybe a little more hesitant. start something new.
Sara Smith 14:16
Maybe? He did grade this year in school. So I don't know.
Jennie Sjursen 14:21
He's still uses all of this supports though, too. And everything correct? He
Sara Smith 14:24
does. I don't even know this as I guess they can follow you all the way out of college mean that they can call you into jobs and stuff,
Jennie Sjursen 14:32
your consolidations? Sort of there's two there's the 504 that only covers up to 12th grade. Okay. And then there is another section that's for work placement. So the plan from school can't follow you all the way through, but you can get a new if you go to the school and say this is what I need.
Jennie Sjursen 14:52
They can approve it. And then yeah, then because that's under the American Disabilities Act, okay, but the 504 plan and the IEP You only are from K to 12. But yes, he can. He can all the way through through jobs and everything else get those accommodations. Yep.
Sara Smith 15:06
So he had that we thought we were able to get him. I didn't have to get him retested. Thank goodness, I just had to show paperwork from high school. And then I went with him, and he uses it. And basically, it's just standard stuff on timed quiet room stuff. And he did fine. And I had that in college, too. And I didn't use it all the time, just in certain cases. I assume that will be the same with him.
Jennie Sjursen 15:33
Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the whole purpose of services and accommodations is to get you to a point where you can do it on as much as you can. There are certain accommodations, you'll always have to have, like, you say, you're slower readers, you're gonna need that extra to write. But you know, there are other services and supports, you're like, No, no, I got that. Now, I've got them. Yeah. So is there a strength that you think dyslexia gave you? Well,
Sara Smith 15:59
I don't know, this is my personality, or this because of the way and intervention. But I'm hyper organised.
Jennie Sjursen 16:05
Yeah, I was gonna say, because you know, things are going to take you time. You are very planned and very organised. And I think that is part of your strategy.
Sara Smith 16:15
I also a couple things, I don't have perfectionism in the realm of anything, learning something new. I'm fine with it failing few times. I'm used to that. So and like perseverance, determination, top notch. Yeah. You're You're very driven, that don't get dissuaded from the goal very easily know, when you lock in on something
Jennie Sjursen 16:37
you're pretty locked in. It doesn't
Sara Smith 16:39
matter if it's academic, or athletic, or whatever. Yeah.
Jennie Sjursen 16:43
I will say I think I say the same thing, from Dad, you and Cooper. And that is the social piece. I think all three of you. Because the reading was so hard, your social skills are phenomenal. And you can come into a room and engage with people really easily and make those connections.
Sara Smith 17:07
That's true. That goes back to high school a little bit, I remember being upset, I didn't have a thing, I still don't like this part about me. I don't have a thing that I excel in. So I'm not going to fidex I'm not going to art, I'm not going to academics. So there's not like one strength, that guy would be like, well, I can't do this. But I'm banged up artist or whatever. Like, I can't do that. So I do remember dad telling me in high school, but you could talk to anybody, you can talk to anybody.
Jennie Sjursen 17:35
So I think you're knocking yourself a little there, probably, because I think you have those intangible skills that a lot of us wish that we did and could have, you're excellent at research, if I ever need something for
Sara Smith 17:53
solving, you got a problem, I'm gonna find out a way to solve Yeah,
Jennie Sjursen 17:57
I mean, it's true that you think out of the box, and that that I do attribute to your dyslexia because you had to think out of the box to get things. Your social skills are phenomenal. And you take care of people like nobody else. So I think I think you knock yourself a little
Sara Smith 18:13
bit, but it's not like like, as a kid. That's not something you could like, no, that's part
Jennie Sjursen 18:18
of being a kid. And growing up, you're comparing yourself until you you find your comfort zone, right? Do you have any advice for anybody who is in like your situation where you're kind of in that middle where you're the child's? Mom,
Sara Smith 18:31
I guess I would say, in terms of being the mom, I would say trust your gut to what your kid needs. Even with all the testing, you're gonna be able to tell what he or she needs, obviously, get that expert opinion, but you know, marry it with what you think, especially in a public school system. Don't let them tell you otherwise. In my marriage, I'm not usually the one who's the one who's got to be told to calm down.
Sara Smith 18:57
Let me put it that way. Yes, this is true. In those meetings, Matt will put his hand on me man, okay, we got to relax, because you're going in as Pitbull. Correct. And I didn't care if they liked me or not. So I would say as a parent, mother, whatever, it's kind of like what they say about women and health, like, be your best advocate, be their best advocate. So that for that, I guess, in terms of middle life, as to someone having dyslexia, really you They probably already know this, which is play to your strengths. So I really think they're
Jennie Sjursen 19:30
okay. Anything as a as a child that would dyslexic. How do you support dad?
Sara Smith 19:35
I don't take over. So when he has a problem, and he wants help with computer today, he was trying to do something with his taxes on the computer. I don't do it. I just sit with him and say, let's figure out, you know, we'll sit together and do it. Because he's not really looking for me to do it. Now he's looking for the help. He's looking for the help. And you know, it's He's at something. So it's not like he's intuitive on this stuff.
Sara Smith 20:05
But also, just having someone in this case, he's probably had many people step in and just do it. That's not his whole life. He doesn't really want anybody to step in and do No, he just wanted to do it. But he needed a little extra something. And so I know that feeling so for in terms of helping Dad, I don't solve the problem in so much as Give it to me. I'm more like, well, let's just talk about this and see what it is you really want. And then we can help you.
Jennie Sjursen 20:32
Yeah, I think you do that with everybody, though. I think that your approach to everybody is, what is it that you really want? And I look, can we solve it? Right?
Sara Smith 20:41
Let's back into.
Jennie Sjursen 20:42
Yeah, so is there something I missed that I didn't ask you that you want others to know?
Sara Smith 20:49
I think that enough, people don't really talk about the emotional side, what it does to your psyche enough, I think anytime you look up anything, it's just about how to get through the skills, how to get your child to take the SATs, or whatever that kind of stuff is who to help your kid learn X, Y, and Z or how to help you. How can you manage this, whatever.
Jennie Sjursen 21:14
It's very academic for rest,
Sara Smith 21:16
I don't think anyone talks about the mental side of it enough. And I've actually looked for that. Because I wanted to see if I identified as an adult, dyslexic, like, what that was, and I can couldn't find any resources for that, you know, you see on like, Instagram, sometimes they'll be like, if you're a child of a narcissist, then you export and blah, blah, blah.
Sara Smith 21:37
Like I was kind of looking for that one time for a dyslexic, and to see how it, what it did to me emotionally or what parts I connect with? And I can't find that.
Jennie Sjursen 21:47
I don't agree, I don't think I haven't really found that I find the piece where they talk about people with dyslexia have higher rates of anxiety. Sure, but I don't find more about that emotional. Yeah, kind of functioning piece. Right.
Sara Smith 22:01
And I do think that's really big. I think if anything right now, that's the stuff that's still lingers, is the stuff about not feeling smart enough, worthy enough, you know, I don't have a spot thing that I'm good at that kind of stuff. And I haven't ever found anything to I do think that played into my eating disorder to the dyslexia or control issue kind of thing. No, it was more like, I couldn't do a good job at school, I couldn't do a good job on the athletic field. I couldn't do a good job and art, whatever.
Sara Smith 22:34
But I couldn't look the way that society wanted. Oh, I see. You're saying, okay, gave me a way to fit in. So I would like to have I've already unwrapped I mean, I've done, you know, therapy and work on the eating disorder, but I think it plays in more than I realise. Yeah, I think they're connected like that. Yeah, by nature. I've always been a little self reflective. And so that is definitely something I would like to unravel more how that dyslexia stuff plays into my current habits and thoughts
Jennie Sjursen 23:01
and things like that, I guess. Yeah. Because I think those are just things that you carry with you. Oh, it's so from my perspective, I have things in childhood related to the ADHD that wasn't diagnosed, right. And I still find my brain can get tied up in some of those things, especially in the social emotional piece of it. Right. And I have to kind of walk myself off the ledge every now and then.
Sara Smith 23:24
Well, you know, we were brought up in the 80s, where it wasn't like, there wasn't really mental health care. So no, and he was said she had all the time that was like, somewhat harmful or was going to stick in your head or something you would remember over and over and over, just
Jennie Sjursen 23:38
as everybody does, but especially when it is your weakness. You pursue every on that thing that somebody else kind of called out. You thought you were hiding. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.
Sara Smith 23:50
So I guess that's the the I would like to see more talk our communication about that part of it. I actually think that part lasts longer than anything else. Because once you get your coping skills, you can navigate life pretty easily.
Jennie Sjursen 24:03
The hardest part in the beginning, is yes, getting those skills to decode and encode and all that. But the real hard piece all through life is what you're talking about. Yeah.
Sara Smith 24:15
I think Dan talked about that, too. He did. You know, he figured out his own coping skills. He got the diagnosis and was like, oh, man, I'm not done. But all that other stuff that comes with that. I don't know how much using chisel I
Jennie Sjursen 24:29
think it still plays on him and I and I know he mentioned that he still to this day won't get up in front of a crowd and like read. Oh, yeah, yeah, he'll riff they'll get you going. But he will doesn't do presentations or things like that. Because I won't do that. Yeah. He relates that back to all those years ago sitting in elementary school, being asked to return from class. Yep.
Sara Smith 24:52
It definitely makes me I'm not very comfortable with stick standing out. I don't like to stand out. Not necessarily. I don't necessarily kind of form 100% either but I'm not into like,
Jennie Sjursen 25:02
I know I would not call you a conformist. Thank you so much for coming and talk about this and I love you i hope you enjoyed this episode of literacy untangled. If you love this episode as much as I did, head on over and rate and subscribe so you never miss an episode. If you want to continue the conversation or share your takeaways, head on over to our Instagram at literacy untangled and comment on your favourite part. I can't wait to hang out with you again soon. Bye
